This is why I remain torn about abortion. I suppose it's the "lesser of two evils". Better is not getting pregnant in the first place. I may be a conservative Christian, but I'll make sure my kids know how to use a condom, just in case they ever need it.
Well, obviously that's a stupid and wrong thing to do. I understand the motivations behind shooting abortion doctors (these people usually view them as mass murderers), but it's still stupid and criminal.
See above. "Open Heart Surgery" is also the lesser of two evils, but I'm pretty damned opposed to people who view gluttony as a sin trying to get it banned.
I'll make sure my kids know how to use a condom
And the pill. And how to shop for other alternatives. And how to shop for a partner. And to check for STDs between partners. And, and, and.... That's the biggest problem with conservatism these days. You can't prohibit the passing of information and the natural consequences of ignorance and call yourself anything other than a big fat Asshole.
Pill and other methods of hormonal BC only cover one piece of the issue, and are only for women. It's useful for a host of other reasons, anyway, if my daughters have menstrual symptoms anything like my own.
"shop for a partner"? You're referring to things that I don't know about. My experiences are the product of the kind of ignorance you're talking about.
I've talked with nightskyre about it - my biggest concern is that my kids will feel like it's abstinence-or-nothing - so if you start having sex, you're already doomed, why stop? I do know, from experience, that once you've started having sex, it is extremely hard to pull back into the abstinence mindset. Abstinence would be preferable, but I'm not going to trust my kids to have more willpower than either of their parents did. I want to make sure they understand more of the non-tangible consequences of being sexually active, though - not just STDs and pregnancy, but how it changes emotions, relationships, and attitudes. Not sure how well I'll be able to communicate that, but I'll try.
Mostly, I've determined not to be like my parents, who, even after they realized I was having sex, did not talk to me about the risks I was facing (they were pretty distracted by early divorce proceedings at the time, so I'll cut them a little slack). I got the bare-bones sex talk from them when I was 11 (and in my first sex-ed class - thankfully at a Christian school, because I literally did not KNOW what the physical act of sex was)... and after that, the only times either has mentioned sex is when talking about their respective extra-marital affairs.
I want to make sure they understand more of the non-tangible consequences of being sexually active, though - not just STDs and pregnancy, but how it changes emotions, relationships, and attitudes.
I wish more people of all faiths were cognizant of this. Kudos to you for having the intention of talking about this with your kids.
Well, I almost ruined my emotional/spiritual life because of my sexual activity (long story - but I never got an STD or got pregnant, the consequences in my case were all intangible)... not long after, I vowed to be open with my kids about sex, in the hopes that they won't make the same mistakes I did.
That's also what I meant when I said "shop for a partner". You have to discuss and prepare for all of these things. You can't just find a pair of pants you like, they have to fit your needs.
I'm not going to trust my kids to have more willpower than either of their parents did
See, it's not about Willpower. It's about Responsibility. It's about knowing and recognizing the probable consequences, and accepting the possible ones. It's about understanding the difference between what you want and what you can handle. The most important thing about "The Sex Talk" (between partners) is that it happens at least 24 hours before sex is actually pursued. All parties need to be able to walk away from the conversation and sleep on it.
Abstinence would be preferable
The most important thing about "The Sex Talk" (from authority figures) is that it happens early and often. They need to know that you will suborn your preferences to their ability to take responsibility for their own actions. Abstinence-only fails because the parents and teachers responsible ultimately reject their duty to advise.
When you're talking abstinence, especially with the person you are sure you're going to marry, it's pretty much all willpower, IMHO; hormones don't understand "responsibility", and if you're not PLANNING to have sex, it can sneak up on you. If I had had the willpower to say "no" to my own urges to have sex with my first "serious" boyfriend, I probably would have broken up with him a lot sooner, and not felt like I needed to marry him because it would be the "right thing to do" (misplaced feelings of responsibility).
But yeah, I feel like "abstinence-preferable" education is much better than "abstinence-only" - for exactly this reason. If any of the adults I respected had talked to me about sex, it would have almost certainly changed the course of my first few years in college. As it was, that ended up being my time to make big mistakes and gain a lot of maturity. I look at my young married or about-to-be-married Christian friends, and I urge them to think of the same issues that were shoved in my face via pre-marital sex and my parents' divorce; I try to tell them how to step away from the hormones and fuzzy feelings and really look at the long-term consequences of one's actions.
Oh, and again, I give my own parents the benefit of the doubt - I was such a responsible kid, I'm sure they thought such things would never happen to me. Unfortunately, because I had been SO responsible, I'd never had a serious relationship before I had one completely away from adult supervision/advice. Being a kid is a time to make mistakes... and learning how to admit them and ask for help. I don't think I really learned most of that until I didn't have my parents to turn to anymore.
Willpower can fail you. Willpower will fail you. It's a wall; once you find yourself on the other side, it's just as hard to cross. misplaced feelings of responsibility - forcing yourself to justify and continue your actions is Willpower, not Responsibility. Responsibility is resilient; it always snaps back. Responsibility is acknowledging that mistake and dealing with it. Raising your child to make no mistakes is an exercise in failure. Raising them to handle their mistakes is the goal.
I've been in a number of situations where I could have snapped my fingers and got exactly what I wanted at a terrible price. If I relied on Willpower alone, I'd've snapped by now. But knowing the consequences of my actions, knowing that I will wake up in the morning and force myself to pay the price, that's what keeps me on course.
Also, even though Jesus basically said that all sins are equally bad (in the eyes of God), we as humans are prone to viewing certain actions as "worse" than others. (Most) Christians view abortion as murder, and, as such, is "worse" than sins that merely affect yourself (gluttony), or have more minor consequences (lying).
That actually doesn't surprise me at all. I suspect that the vast majority of abortions are done by scared girls not ready to have a baby, or even (in most cases) to admit to family and friends that they're pregnant. Why should that be different among Christians (who place a high stigma on premarital sex) than anyone else?
Because, if they believe that abortion is murder, they are choosing to kill somebody over accepting the shame of admitting an unwanted, premarital pregnancy, and if sins of human desire like gluttony are to be graded lower than murder, I can't see why admission to a sin of desire resulting in pregnancy shouldn't be taken over the greater sin of ending a human life.
I don't know if you're right about the situation of "most" Christian women who have abortions. I don't know how to confirm that. But certainly, it can't be uncommon - many women who have abortions are in the position of being young and scared. Nor do I think abortion isn't, in many cases, the best thing that can be done for someone who finds themselves in that terrible position, regardless of what they do on Sunday. But there is a logical inconsistency between the belief and the action in this case, and given the social conservative (largely evangelical Christian) push in this country to allow states to prohibit abortion, I do think that inconsistency needs to be questioned.
To put it more succinctly: the ideas "I can see why a Christian would believe an abortion provider is a mass murderer" and "A young Christian woman who has an abortion was young and scared, and we should not be surprised" are not compatible with one another.
Not to say that you, personally, would behave like this. But I don't think you can make a plea for sympathy for a moral view that doesn't make its way into practice.
Not to mention that the rates of the -consequences- of an absence of birth control/abortion/etc are higher as the rates of Christianity increase... STDs, teen pregnancies, divorces, wife-beating, etc...
It is the 'godless liberals' that actually display some morality... which is why they/we don't have to wear it on our f-cking sleeves.
I'll now preemptively shut the f- up, so etherial doesn't have to ask me to... but read the f-king numbers some time.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
No sympathy here.
Careful, now
Re: Careful, now
Re: Careful, now
Re: Careful, now
I've got a lot of gall, ya know.
no subject
I'll make sure my kids know how to use a condom
And the pill. And how to shop for other alternatives. And how to shop for a partner. And to check for STDs between partners. And, and, and.... That's the biggest problem with conservatism these days. You can't prohibit the passing of information and the natural consequences of ignorance and call yourself anything other than a big fat Asshole.
no subject
"shop for a partner"? You're referring to things that I don't know about. My experiences are the product of the kind of ignorance you're talking about.
I've talked with
Mostly, I've determined not to be like my parents, who, even after they realized I was having sex, did not talk to me about the risks I was facing (they were pretty distracted by early divorce proceedings at the time, so I'll cut them a little slack). I got the bare-bones sex talk from them when I was 11 (and in my first sex-ed class - thankfully at a Christian school, because I literally did not KNOW what the physical act of sex was)... and after that, the only times either has mentioned sex is when talking about their respective extra-marital affairs.
no subject
I wish more people of all faiths were cognizant of this. Kudos to you for having the intention of talking about this with your kids.
no subject
no subject
no subject
What matter a few million slaughered babies, when he killed every living thing on Earth (minus a few naked apes and 2-by-2 animals) in a fit of pique.
no subject
See, it's not about Willpower. It's about Responsibility. It's about knowing and recognizing the probable consequences, and accepting the possible ones. It's about understanding the difference between what you want and what you can handle. The most important thing about "The Sex Talk" (between partners) is that it happens at least 24 hours before sex is actually pursued. All parties need to be able to walk away from the conversation and sleep on it.
Abstinence would be preferable
The most important thing about "The Sex Talk" (from authority figures) is that it happens early and often. They need to know that you will suborn your preferences to their ability to take responsibility for their own actions. Abstinence-only fails because the parents and teachers responsible ultimately reject their duty to advise.
no subject
But yeah, I feel like "abstinence-preferable" education is much better than "abstinence-only" - for exactly this reason. If any of the adults I respected had talked to me about sex, it would have almost certainly changed the course of my first few years in college. As it was, that ended up being my time to make big mistakes and gain a lot of maturity. I look at my young married or about-to-be-married Christian friends, and I urge them to think of the same issues that were shoved in my face via pre-marital sex and my parents' divorce; I try to tell them how to step away from the hormones and fuzzy feelings and really look at the long-term consequences of one's actions.
Oh, and again, I give my own parents the benefit of the doubt - I was such a responsible kid, I'm sure they thought such things would never happen to me. Unfortunately, because I had been SO responsible, I'd never had a serious relationship before I had one completely away from adult supervision/advice. Being a kid is a time to make mistakes... and learning how to admit them and ask for help. I don't think I really learned most of that until I didn't have my parents to turn to anymore.
see, that's the problem
I've been in a number of situations where I could have snapped my fingers and got exactly what I wanted at a terrible price. If I relied on Willpower alone, I'd've snapped by now. But knowing the consequences of my actions, knowing that I will wake up in the morning and force myself to pay the price, that's what keeps me on course.
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
I don't know if you're right about the situation of "most" Christian women who have abortions. I don't know how to confirm that. But certainly, it can't be uncommon - many women who have abortions are in the position of being young and scared. Nor do I think abortion isn't, in many cases, the best thing that can be done for someone who finds themselves in that terrible position, regardless of what they do on Sunday. But there is a logical inconsistency between the belief and the action in this case, and given the social conservative (largely evangelical Christian) push in this country to allow states to prohibit abortion, I do think that inconsistency needs to be questioned.
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
It is the 'godless liberals' that actually display some morality... which is why they/we don't have to wear it on our f-cking sleeves.
I'll now preemptively shut the f- up, so etherial doesn't have to ask me to... but read the f-king numbers some time.
(See also: wide stance republicans, ted haggert, congressional page scandal, etc etc.)