A while back, I made a post comparing people who solicit for designer donor eggs to Nazis. As always, art and humor can never find ways to be as awful as real life. Lookie what we have here from Sunday.
Actually, I'm not sure that compensation isn't comparable-- sperm donors are paid over a course of 6 months to 2 years, but aren't required to undergo invasive surgery and they can continue to donate whilst they remain suitably healthy, and can continue to donate over a longer period of time.
I don't know if you noticed, but I stole the icon for this comment from the website of a Boston Sperm Bank. I use it for money, sex, silly, and weird topics.
So are people who look for those specifications in their love life Nazis as well?
Eugenics may be tainted by its association with Nazism and racial purity, but I don't see anything wrong with voluntarily selecting for desirable traits. When does (non-coercive) eugenics become bad? Selecting out diseases with in-vitro fertilization? For long life? For a fit body? For intelligence? So that the child will appear to be the natural child of the parents? For other aesthetic desires?
I understand that messing with evolution can be dangerous, and I understand that coercive eugenics is a pretty huge violation (though sometime in the future we may question the ethics of parents who do not select out deadly diseases), but condemning the science as "just evil" is failing to improve the quality-of-life of individuals and, potentially with time, society as a whole just because of bad memories that aren't directly related to the practice.
Ok, you're full of crap and hyperbole. Aesthetics are aesthetics and have nothing to do with exalting one race over another or genocide, y'know, the actually bad things Nazis did.
People are commonly attracted to people with similar general features to themselves and their family members. Whether this is some genetic predisposition to perpetuating your clan or a simple association between your family and comfort, it's not like you're going to tell them "you find this person attractive instead". If some Swedish guy is attracted to women with Nordic features, so what?
"Aesthetics are aesthetics" -- a tautology. Where do aesthetics come from?
From this, I should infer that aesthetics, the appreciation of beauty, comes from either a genetic predisposition to in-clan breeding or psychological association with in-clan features?
That is where appreciation of beauty comes from?
Now... we've no knowledge that this family is Sweedish. Indeed, if they were Scandinavian, they may well have specified something like "Scandinavian herritage preferred"-- but they didn't.
Presumably they're Caucasian, however. The relative scarcity of blond hair and blue eyes is thus quite relevant, given the arguments you're advancing-- most members of "their clan" don't have (natural) blond hair or blue eyes!
Yes, my guess would be that appreciation of beauty comes from one (or a mixture of) those two some mixture of those two sources.
My assumption here is that most people do not identify specific ethnic tribes in their aesthetics. Some people may have conscious tribal desires and would search out someone who has specifically Nordic ancestry, but most people will only be operating on a subconscious level where the primary physical characteristics have the most impact.
If you're assuming the parents are not blond haired and blue eyed, why are you even assuming they're Caucasian? My assumption here is that they're trying to match the mother's appearance in order to have a child that would be as close to what would be their natural child as possible.
Nazism in a nutshell: My race should stick together. There's nothing sufficiently evil about it in its basis that we need to shoot Nazis on sight. But race war is a natural, logical, and inevitable outcome of Nationalist Socialism. When your race needs to expand and so does your neighbor's, the exclusivity forces you into conflict.
It's perfectly fine to say "I trend this way". But confusing trend lines with natural laws is where I disagree with Homophobes, Racists, Sexists, and Bigots of all stripes.
No, that's tribalism. Aryans are far from the only tribalistic group and certainly not an inevitable product of it. Hell, the Jews themselves are exceptionally tribalistic.
I'm not even in favor of tribalism, but when the answer is "you're wrong for following your aesthetic desires" it's stepped too far. If someone trends to find blond haired and blue eyed women attractive, it's hardly a bad idea to put that up in a dating profile. If a couple is blond haired and blue eyed, it's not in any way weird for them to want a child who looks the same, for both shallow and not so shallow reasons.
Yes, Nazism is tribalism as political (as opposed to sociological) theory.
you're wrong for following your aesthetic desires
Did you even look at the ad? They're not following aesthetic desires. They provided a set of hard and fast criteria, many of which have nothing to do with genetics or aesthetics.
-some form of college education -irrelevant to genetics or aesthetics -BMI of 28 or less -linked more closely to income than either -20-28 years of age -irrelevant to aesthetics, more relevant to the surgery than reproduction -height 5'3 or taller -Blond hair -Blue eyes -some form of post HS education -irrelevant to genetics or aesthetics -Caucasian -no use of illegal drugs, cigarettes, alcohol abuse or antidepressants -linked more closely to income than either -active lifestyle -linked more closely to income than either -attractive -linked more closely to income than either
Nazism in a nutshell: My race should stick together.
I think there's a big difference between racial pride and actively trying to exterminate other races. Perhaps racial pride is condemnable, but putting it on the same level as the Nazis is like saying murderers and shoplifters are equally condemnable since they're both crimes.
On the other hand....bah! Only 5k for eggs? I could get 8k! *wiggles Asian genes about* Now if only I didn't have a problem with, you know, seriously disruptive and invasive surgery for money.
Wait. I'm at work and don't have time to read through this thread, but are my friends actually arguing that if someday I want to have a kid and I want it to have brown hair and light eyes and light skin like me (and, if you want to go there, if this were londo and I trying to have a kid and we request a kid with light hair and light eyes and light skin tone, to be like a combination of us), I am a Nazi?
But the situation I'm proposing is that if some day in the future londo and I want kids but between the two of us can't have them and decide to go for an egg donor. I would look for, yes, a donor whose distinguishable characteristics matched ours - blonde or light brunette hair, light eyes, light skin, high IQ, etc etc etc. I would put these characteristics in any ad I would post looking for an egg donor, and yes I would say that people who don't fit in those categories should not apply. So I think it satisfies the same amount of "need" as the woman you've linked to, who only asks for replies that fit her criteria.
Would you really prefer someone with light eyes and skin who was blind, deaf, and had MS over someone with brown eyes, olive skin, and an olympic gold medal?
No, but I don't think that's the question or situation here. I'm really confused as to where you got it from, because it's quite obviously not what the Craigslister wants.
I don't think it is, either. But suppose that tomorrow, someone really does post an ad on craigslist that cares only about race, eye color, IQ, etc. How would it look any different?
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(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-16 02:29 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-16 03:08 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-16 03:10 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-16 03:52 pm (UTC)(You find the strangest shit on wikipedia.)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-16 03:53 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-16 03:56 pm (UTC)Um... that explains why the $ is "fuzzy."
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-16 03:03 pm (UTC)Eugenics may be tainted by its association with Nazism and racial purity, but I don't see anything wrong with voluntarily selecting for desirable traits. When does (non-coercive) eugenics become bad? Selecting out diseases with in-vitro fertilization? For long life? For a fit body? For intelligence? So that the child will appear to be the natural child of the parents? For other aesthetic desires?
I understand that messing with evolution can be dangerous, and I understand that coercive eugenics is a pretty huge violation (though sometime in the future we may question the ethics of parents who do not select out deadly diseases), but condemning the science as "just evil" is failing to improve the quality-of-life of individuals and, potentially with time, society as a whole just because of bad memories that aren't directly related to the practice.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-16 03:06 pm (UTC)Yes. It's a free country. If you want to be a Nazi, you can be a Nazi.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-16 03:18 pm (UTC)People are commonly attracted to people with similar general features to themselves and their family members. Whether this is some genetic predisposition to perpetuating your clan or a simple association between your family and comfort, it's not like you're going to tell them "you find this person attractive instead". If some Swedish guy is attracted to women with Nordic features, so what?
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-16 03:24 pm (UTC)And how exactly do people develop their sense of aesthetics, in your view?
How prevalent is 'blond hair and blue eyes' even amongst Caucasians, and given that, what leads you to believe it is common?
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-16 03:27 pm (UTC)And where did the commonality of blond/blue even come into the picture?
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-16 03:48 pm (UTC)From this, I should infer that aesthetics, the appreciation of beauty, comes from either a genetic predisposition to in-clan breeding or psychological association with in-clan features?
That is where appreciation of beauty comes from?
Now... we've no knowledge that this family is Sweedish. Indeed, if they were Scandinavian, they may well have specified something like "Scandinavian herritage preferred"-- but they didn't.
Presumably they're Caucasian, however. The relative scarcity of blond hair and blue eyes is thus quite relevant, given the arguments you're advancing-- most members of "their clan" don't have (natural) blond hair or blue eyes!
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-16 04:14 pm (UTC)My assumption here is that most people do not identify specific ethnic tribes in their aesthetics. Some people may have conscious tribal desires and would search out someone who has specifically Nordic ancestry, but most people will only be operating on a subconscious level where the primary physical characteristics have the most impact.
If you're assuming the parents are not blond haired and blue eyed, why are you even assuming they're Caucasian? My assumption here is that they're trying to match the mother's appearance in order to have a child that would be as close to what would be their natural child as possible.
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From:You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means
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Date: 2008-09-16 03:25 pm (UTC)It's perfectly fine to say "I trend this way". But confusing trend lines with natural laws is where I disagree with Homophobes, Racists, Sexists, and Bigots of all stripes.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-16 03:39 pm (UTC)I'm not even in favor of tribalism, but when the answer is "you're wrong for following your aesthetic desires" it's stepped too far. If someone trends to find blond haired and blue eyed women attractive, it's hardly a bad idea to put that up in a dating profile. If a couple is blond haired and blue eyed, it's not in any way weird for them to want a child who looks the same, for both shallow and not so shallow reasons.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-16 03:47 pm (UTC)you're wrong for following your aesthetic desires
Did you even look at the ad? They're not following aesthetic desires. They provided a set of hard and fast criteria, many of which have nothing to do with genetics or aesthetics.
-some form of college education -irrelevant to genetics or aesthetics
-BMI of 28 or less -linked more closely to income than either
-20-28 years of age -irrelevant to aesthetics, more relevant to the surgery than reproduction
-height 5'3 or taller
-Blond hair
-Blue eyes
-some form of post HS education -irrelevant to genetics or aesthetics
-Caucasian
-no use of illegal drugs, cigarettes, alcohol abuse or antidepressants -linked more closely to income than either
-active lifestyle -linked more closely to income than either
-attractive -linked more closely to income than either
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Date: 2008-09-16 11:04 pm (UTC)I think there's a big difference between racial pride and actively trying to exterminate other races. Perhaps racial pride is condemnable, but putting it on the same level as the Nazis is like saying murderers and shoplifters are equally condemnable since they're both crimes.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-16 03:07 pm (UTC)On the other hand....bah! Only 5k for eggs? I could get 8k! *wiggles Asian genes about* Now if only I didn't have a problem with, you know, seriously disruptive and invasive surgery for money.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-16 03:49 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-16 07:54 pm (UTC)I want it to have brown hair, etc...I am a Nazi?
Date: 2008-09-16 08:04 pm (UTC)Edit: Also, this person is looking for an egg donor. A more appropriate metaphor would be you refusing to mate with
Re: I want it to have brown hair, etc...I am a Nazi?
Date: 2008-09-16 10:03 pm (UTC)Re: I want it to have brown hair, etc...I am a Nazi?
Date: 2008-09-17 02:50 am (UTC)Re: I want it to have brown hair, etc...I am a Nazi?
Date: 2008-09-17 02:54 am (UTC)Re: No, but I don't think that's the question or situation here.
Date: 2008-09-17 02:58 am (UTC)That's REALLY not the question nor situation here.
From:Re: That's REALLY not the question nor situation here.
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